Interview with Gerry Bergstein – Portray Perceptions

Gerry Bergstein is a widely known Boston painter and instructor who has massively influenced many artists because the Eighties. I not too long ago was viewing his work on-line and have become re-enchanted by his astounding expertise and wide selection of artwork historic references, types, processes, and subject material. His morphing and juxtapositioning of visible and cultural opposites has made for a extremely ingenious and private artwork in contrast to another. I notably love his resistance to doctrine and his contrarian takes on the chances for artwork. I made a decision to ask him for an interview and was extremely delighted and grateful when he agreed to speak with me on a Zoom name.

The late Francine Koslow Miller wrote in a 2002 Art Forum review of a Gerry Bergstein exhibition on the Howard Yezerski Gallery.

“Bergstein pursues darker issues in his vaguely architectural black-and-white work of mounds. An amalgam of decaying mountain, medieval constructing, and phallus, the mound all the time seems to be imploding or exploding in these works, which resemble pencil drawings on broken paper (right here the artist etched traces right into a ready floor of black paint overlaid with white). For Mount, 2002, Bergstein moved his stylus forwards and backwards throughout the extremely detailed central type in strokes imitating the rhythmic gestures of a cellist. Within the monumental Self-Portrait as Tower of Babel, 2002, the mound is underneath siege, pierced with luscious black holes; it begins to topple earlier than a romantic cloudy sky. References to Leonardo’s Deluge drawings, Brueghel’s Tower of Babel, and Piranesi’s ruins abound on this anthropomorphic citadel, whose stony pores and skin seems to be ripping aside. (It’s onerous not to think about the World Commerce Middle as properly.) Hidden among the many gaps within the tower are self-portraits and different small photographs: insect caricatures, a paint tube, a Guston “eye,” a thumb, a rocket ship.

In these works Bergstein equates nature and tradition with private ambition and beliefs. The mounds might posit civilization as an attractive pile of rubbish, however additionally they recommend Bergstein as existentialist antihero on the foot of his personal mountain of ambition (his objective being to attain world relevance whereas staying true to himself). As Albert Camus ends his Delusion of Sisyphus: “This universe henceforth with out a grasp appears to him neither sterile nor futile. Every atom of that stone, every mineral flake of that night-filled mountain in itself varieties a world. The wrestle itself towards the heights is sufficient to fill a person’s coronary heart. One should think about Sisyphus completely satisfied.” Bergstein likewise transforms the torment of his wrestle into victory.”

—Francine Koslow Miller

Nicholas Capasso wrote in his essay Expressionism: Boston’s Claim to Fame
(Initially printed in Painting in Boston: 1950-2000)
 

“…Bergstein distilled all these sources”(Max Ernst, Rene Magritte, de Kooning, Gorky, and Guston) “…into a private strategy during which Surrealist methods of free affiliation and irrational juxtaposition had been delivered to bear on expressively distorted photographs created with a tremendous facility of craft. This artist might draw and paint like an expressionist, an Summary Expressionist, a veristic Surrealist, and a trompe-l’oeil grasp—and convincingly mix these types on a single canvas. In the course of the eighties, this stylistic spectrum was matched by an equally various vary of images drawn from artwork historical past, self-portraiture, nature, in style tradition (particularly tv), and the suburban cultural panorama—once more, all on the identical floor. “
“…I continued to discover the spatial tensions obtained by juxtaposing thick and skinny paint. I had all the time been eager about juxtaposition of photographs (Magritte). I used to be discovering that juxtapositioning of various surfaces may very well be simply as unusual and surreal.”

The purpose of Bergstein’s method and strategy to imagery is essentially humanistic and expressionistic. He seeks to specific ineffable psychological states conditioned by his personal expertise of the world—an admittedly chaotic and complicated world—as a mannequin for emotionally apprehending bigger points in modern society, psychology, epistemology, and ontology. These weighty themes, although, are all the time tempered by humor. Because the artist explains it, “My objective is to do for portray what Groucho Marx and Alfred Hitchcock did for films and tv. My work is a illustration of the paradoxes, ironies, and absurdities of our media-bombarded tradition, translated by way of the language of paint.” Elsewhere he wrote, “I nonetheless surprise how the unexplainable creation of the universe, the light-speed motion of all these subatomic particles, and billions of years of evolution might have led to squeezing the Charmin, tax returns, life insurance coverage, the artwork world, and different unusual outcomes. If, as Einstein stated, ‘God doesn’t play cube with the universe,’ perhaps he was enjoying bingo.”

From Gerry Bergstein’s website:

Bergstein’s work contrasts the superior and the trivial, the excessive and the low, the manic and the melancholic utilizing sources from Brueghel to “The Simpsons.” He’s the recipient of an Artadia grant (2007), a profession achievement award from the St. Botolph Membership (2007), and a four-week residency on the Liguria Research Middle in Genoa, Italy (2006). His solo exhibits embrace Gallery NAGA and the Danforth Museum; Howard Yezerski Gallery, Boston (’04, ’02, ’99, ’97); Stephan Stux Gallery, NY (’99); Galerie Bonnier, Geneva, Switzerland; Zolla Lieberman Gallery, Chicago, IL; and the DeCordova Museum, Lincoln, MA. He’s represented within the collections of The Museum of Fantastic Arts, Boston; MIT; DeCordova Museum; Davis Museum at Wellesley Faculty; IBM; and lots of others. He has been reviewed broadly within the native press in addition to Tema Celeste, ARTnews, Artwork in America, and Artforum. He has been on the school on the Faculty of the Museum of Fantastic Arts, Boston for over twenty years.

Larry Groff:
What had been your early years rising up like? What was your loved ones like? 

Gerry Bergstein:
I grew up within the Bronx and Queens in New York, the place I stayed until I went away to school and left New York. We lived in Bayside Queens, which was nothing like Manhattan. I might be very shocked if anybody else on my block ever went to the MoMA, as an example. Nonetheless, my father beloved to attract and paint; my mom beloved music and literature.  I’ll not have turn out to be an artist if not for his or her assist. Like when my mom informed me to go to see that Max Ernst present. If my mom had been alive at this time, she would have turn out to be a Music or an English professor, however she didn’t get to go to school, sadly. My father was an accountant. When he was youthful, he did quite a lot of great real looking drawings of his household; lots of them are hanging in my residence.  He might need made it as an artist,  however his household discouraged it, and he wanted a job to assist the household. He continued to attract and play the piano like Mozart, and  Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata was one in all my favorites. So I grew up round classical music and older artwork. 

My dad and mom didn’t get modern artwork. One time, once I was a lot older, I went with my mother to the Guggenheim, which had simply reopened with a Dan Flavin present after having been closed for a time, and the very first thing she stated, “Effectively, I assume they don’t have the artwork right here but – they’ve simply put the lights. (laughs)  And so, a part of my problem with excessive and low artwork is that I’ve that skepticism of my mother, however then again, I additionally like quite a lot of that stuff. Ultimately, I got here to love Dan Flavin. So I’ve combined emotions about excessive and low, and I like combining them. So I’m a contrarian I all the time see each side of every thing, which is each enjoyable and wholesome. 

LG:
 I learn that your mom inspired you to see a Max Ernst retrospective on the MoMA within the early 60s. I used to be curious so I seemed on-line to see if there was any details about that present and located the catalog for the present on the MoMA web site – I discovered a quote that appeared prefer it might have additionally been describing your work. 

“From Ernst’s frottagee, decalcomanlas and flows of pigment emerge a procession of visions typically obsessive and infrequently prophetic: new landscapes inhabited by new phantoms and animals; new adventures and new terrors revealed by the rarest and most vital goals. The world of Ernst might be turbulent, eruptive and violent. It may possibly additionally provide with irrational lucidity and calm, a proof of the magic of objects, the black humor of human foibles and the apparition of unseen presences. Just like the trying glass, the Imagined world of Ernst is a reverse picture. It’s also a universe.”

Are you able to say one thing about your curiosity in Ernst and another influences which are most essential, particularly the surrealists?

Gerry Bergstein:
I used to do these little summary, very detailed ink drawings. They had been principally summary, however my mother will need to have acknowledged one thing about their complexity, so she despatched me to the Max Ernst present, which blew me away. I agree with the assertion you gave.

“new adventures and new terrors revealed by the rarest and most vital goals, the world of Ernst might be turbulent, eruptive and violent“, is one thing I’m very eager about in addition to “The magic of objects”.  Magritte put it otherwise. Magritte did a portray of a marriage ring floating on high of a piano. He had this concept of secret and magical affinities between objects, you couldn’t put these affinities into phrases, however I like that concept. I assume that’s an entire Surrealist thought. And the final line that Max Ernst’s work as a universe additionally rings true to me. Though my work is a universe–it’s the universe inside my mind and my studio. Possibly the universe is within the mind of the beholder.

I acknowledge stuff from engaged on an image. I’m not superb at observing actuality in nature. I’m type of unhealthy at it, perhaps, as a result of I’ve by no means achieved it that a lot. Nonetheless, what I’m good at is exploring my mind visually in response to the marks I make, I’ve this sgraffito course of, during which the paint stays moist for a month, and I can draw into and out of it. I mix various things. I’ll depart the studio after which come again the subsequent day, and it’s telling me one thing, to reinforce this or to deemphasize that. I’m fairly good at that. It’s simply who I’m, which entails free affiliation and rorschaching. Gregory Gillespie talked about rorschaching rather a lot and is much like what I do – however completely different.

Larry:
I’m questioning if the painter Ivan Albright has some affinities with you? It’s not surrealism or rorshaching, however the depth and drive of his imaginative and prescient maybe are associated to you and Gillespie’s work.

Gerry Bergstein:
Completely, I feel the ironic factor is about these polarity issues I went to Chicago and noticed Albright’s portray, That Which I Should Have Done I Did Not Do (The Door), a few years in the past. I noticed an image of it in a e-book once I was a young person, and it completely blew me away, however if you stand up near the precise portray and have a look at one sq. inch of that door, it appears like a microscopic Jackson Pollock. So many little attention-grabbing marks. I like artwork that refers, deliberately or not, to the entire of Artwork in an unique approach.

Gerry Bergstein:
Yet one more factor about surrealism, have you learnt the portray Hide and Seek by Pavel Tchelitchew?

LG: Certain.

Gerry Bergstein:
I beloved it as a young person, after which in 2017, I retired from instructing, however in 2019 I used to be persuaded to show a grad seminar, however I used to be shy and nervous about my listening to and was afraid I wasn’t updated sufficient. So to assuage myself, I visited MOMA simply two days earlier than that class began in 2019. And I walked as much as the third ground and there was Disguise and Search hanging once more after it had been in storage for like 30 years. The wall textual content stated that in 1961, which was the 12 months I first noticed it, was voted by the general public to be the preferred portray in our assortment. Effectively, I assumed that was such an affirmation. I don’t find it irresistible as a lot as I used to, however I assumed, ‘what goes round, comes round’.  It suffered from acclaim, rejection, and re-acclaim. I feel that’s so nice.

Prefer it or not, the politics of artwork aesthetics within the artwork world come into my work, in a really ambivalent approach.

LG: 
You studied on the Artwork College students League?

Gerry Bergstein: I studied on the artwork college students league for a 12 months with Harry Sternberg. Who was an ideal instructor. He taught me what freedom was. Harry Sternberg was buddies with Jack Levine. And his work, at instances, was slightly bit like Jack Levine. Edwin Dickinson was proper subsequent door. And Lennart Anderson was there on the time. I moved to Boston accidentally. I had no clue in regards to the Boston expressionist college, however I assumed it was ironic that I moved to Boston and have become considerably concerned with that custom and Boston relatively than New York.

LG:
Why did you progress to Boston?

Gerry Bergstein:
I needed to go to a spot that was affiliated with the school. In any other case, I might have been drafted.

LG:
What was your expertise going to the museum college (Faculty of the Museum of Fantastic Arts at Tufts College) again then?  You studied with Henry Schwartz, Barney Rubenstein and Jan Cox, a Belgian Surrealist painter. Was Barney the principle instructor that can assist you be taught realist and trompe l’oeil portray?

Gerry Bergstein:
Henry Schwartz taught me extra; he had these weird setups that had been surreal, and so they jogged my memory slightly little bit of a few of Bruce Connors’s early work. Surreal setups with musical scores and portraits and various things pasted it collectively, and so they had been pleasant and hilarious. I discovered rather a lot from that mission and I assume that’s what received me eager about trompe l’oeil. Barney was extra of a good friend. I adored Barney and discovered rather a lot from him, however it wasn’t a teacher-student factor; it was extra lengthy conversations. Plus, I beloved his work. Jan Cox woke up sure issues in my creativeness. I took a design class with him, and he was candy and accepting of surprising concepts.

I skilled the museum college in numerous methods. I used to be a  scholar there within the final two years of the extremely educational curriculum to the coed revolution in 1970, which modified that fully. Quickly after that, Clement Greenberg started to carry sway in Boston with new college at college and Kenworth Moffett, a  Greenburg acolyte, being employed because the M.F.A.s first modern curator. Clement Greenberg was seen by some as being on the apex of modernism in Boston; though his affect was already in decline in New York. I preferred modernists like Morris Louis and Jules Olitski however I assumed that the concept that you couldn’t present realism or surrealism because of some second-rate philosophy was simply infuriating.
Regardless that the museum college was actually educational for the primary three years I went there, I managed to seek out my approach by way of that, and I’m glad I had some publicity to, , actual educational drawing and that type of factor. Regardless that I wasn’t that nice at it,

LG:
Do you suppose painters want that type of educational coaching?

Gerry Bergstein:
That’s an excellent query. The museum college modified radically in 1969. The scholar strike in the course of the anti-war motion. The top of the college was fired, and a brand new head of the college changed him, and insurance policies had been modified so college students might make their very own curriculum; you didn’t should take any course you didn’t need to. For the primary few years, the outcomes had been disastrous. However finally, it type of labored itself out. Do all artists want that educational construction? I’m undecided, I feel I wanted it, however I don’t know. What do you suppose?

LG:
Once I was in class, I sought out conventional realist coaching. A number of the summary painters whom I like probably the most additionally went by way of that educational rigor. However then there are different summary painters who had been self-taught or didn’t get a lot educational coaching, who I additionally like. So I don’t suppose there’s any proper strategy to be taught artwork, though I do suppose it’s crucial to be taught artwork historical past properly. I don’t imagine in only one proper reply and take a look at to withstand artwork doctrine.

Gerry Bergstein:
There’s nobody reply; I completely agree. Yeah. I imply, I feel de Kooning was an ideal draftsman and I am keen on his early work; I don’t suppose Pollock was such an ideal draftsman.

LG:
Nonetheless, Pollock did research with Thomas Hart Benton, who helped give him an understanding of construction.

Gerry Bergstein:
That’s precisely proper. I feel his compositions have one thing slightly bit in frequent with Benton’s compositions.
Pollock knew what he was; he knew the terrain. Youngsters going to artwork college at this time get little or no of that, though perhaps that’s a gross generalization, I don’t know. I feel it may nonetheless be potential to get it if you would like it sufficient.  Gregory Gillespie as soon as stated to me that regardless of going to the San Francisco Artwork Institute, he thought-about himself self-taught as a result of it was strict summary expressionism when he was there and didn’t provide a lot in the way in which of studying tips on how to be a realist painter.

LG:
Possibly that’s not all the time such a nasty factor typically. Gillespie might have taught himself the way in which he needed to color realistically, however his time at San Francisco Artwork Institute finally helped him turn out to be such a tremendous painter; he will need to have gotten one thing out of it, simply not realist portray chops. Gregory Gillespie is amongst my favourite painters.

Gerry Bergstein:
I keep in mind a narrative about Chuck Shut, whom I feel went to Yale. He was a fairly good summary painter again then. I heard him communicate as soon as at Harvard, and he stated, The issue with summary portray was that he would go away his studio pondering, ‘that is one of the best factor that’s ever been achieved on this planet’. Then he would come again the subsequent day, and it seemed like full crap; he needed to do one thing that he may very well be verifiable that he was doing it proper. He additionally needed to get as distant from de Kooning as potential. So if de Kooning used quite a lot of colour, he used black and white. If de Kooning was completely into the act of portray, he was watching TV whereas he was portray. His transfer to be self-consciously away from that’s attention-grabbing to me as properly. Afterward, he joked that he had made extra de Kooning’s than de Kooning himself with all his little “coloured pixels” in grids that you just see in his later work.
So we’re on this type of lineage. In all probability if I hadn’t taught, I don’t suppose I might be fascinated with the stuff a lot in any respect, however since I taught, it’s an important factor to me.

LG:
It’s most likely not useful to all the time be reacting in opposition to one thing or rebelling. In some unspecified time in the future, it’s important to determine what you need to be.

Gerry Bergstein:
The act of rebel in itself doesn’t assure good artwork. There must be some type of component of affection and discovery within the work, not simply rebel.  I would like each love and rage.

LG:
How did your profession as a painter evolve after ending college? What was life like for you again then? Have been you in a position to paint full-time? Did you begin instructing immediately?

Gerry Bergstein:
once I first received out of faculty. I received a touring fellowship and spent 4 months in Europe, which was life-changing.  Once I received again, for round 5 – 6 years, I labored full-time as an image framer. I didn’t get a lot time to color then. I needed to make a residing, however I made it a degree by no means to surrender. 

In 1973 I received a grant to go to an artist in residency in Roswell, New Mexico, for six months. They gave you a stipend, home, and studio. I went there and received to know some severe artists. We turned pleasant. I received to know their work habits and know what it was prefer to have time to work, which was terrific. 

Once I returned in about 1977, I received a job instructing on the night time college within the Museum Faculty. However it paid 5 {dollars} an hour, my dad and mom would ship me cash now and again, however I used to be residing hand-to-mouth. I made buddies with some artists; Miroslav Antic was one. He was a instructor on the Museum Faculty. He was a lot pushier than me and had a good friend who opened a gallery. He introduced this good friend to my studio, who then provided me a present. I additionally received a job instructing at Harmony Academy, which was slightly higher than being an image framer because it was part-time however slightly bit more cash. I used to be struggling alongside. After which, I had a present at Lopoukhine/Nayduch Gallery in 1979; nothing offered, however there was quite a lot of curiosity from artists, and it was very encouraging.

Grants, so I used to be starting to do okay. I’m a really shy particular person. For a time, I might get away in a sweat simply strolling right into a gallery, not to mention asking them to have a look at my work.

I went to New York and fell in love with artists like Susan Rothenberg, Robert Colescott, The unhealthy portray present on the new Museum, and Philip Guston, Oh my God. I assumed this was the final word negation of the Greenbergian tyranny.

LG:
Has Philip Guston’s work influenced you ultimately? Are you able to discuss this slightly?

Gerry Bergstein:
Once I first noticed Philip Guston in 1975 at BU when he first began doing the Klan heads and I loathed it, however then in 1979, I used to be doing this self-portrait of me coated with a blanket in mattress, and the form of the blanket was rather a lot like a kind of Klan hoods. There was a cigarette with actually thick smoke popping out of it; then I remembered that present, and prefer it was love. I nonetheless love Guston. I turned very enthusiastic about this new course in portray. My good friend Miroslav was type of a mentor then. Henry Schwartz, whom I adored, rejected that work fully, however I didn’t thoughts as a result of I knew Henry beloved me. 

I received right into a present in 1981, Boston Now, on the Institute of Up to date Artwork, the place yearly they’d placed on a present with about eight Boston artists; it was actually thrilling, after which I received into one other Boston Now present the subsequent 12 months after which received picked up by Stux Gallery. After that, I began promoting each single factor I made. From about 1981 to about 1995. I offered every thing. Because of this, I used to be in a position to educate full-time on the Museum college as a result of I used to be displaying. Educating at first was only a day job, however then I discovered rather a lot from it, and it was actually enjoyable.

LG:
Do you see your self as a part of a continuum of the custom of Boston Expressionist portray, akin to Hyman Bloom,  Jack Levine, David Aronson, Karl Zerbe, Henry Schwartz, and others after them? 

Gerry Bergstein:
I’ve considerably combined emotions in regards to the Boston expressionists. I like Hyman Bloom. You recognize,  individuals like Arthur Polonsky and David Aaronson, I assumed they had been slightly too slick, too crowd-pleasing, virtually too romantic, however I assume they’ve all had a giant affect on me. Unusually sufficient, the 12 months I give up instructing, nobody had checked out these guys for many years, I made a decision to do a slide present of all of them for my class. The scholars got here as much as me and stated that is one of the best artwork we’ve seen in years; we find it irresistible! 

 LG:
 Would you name your self a Neo-Expressionist, or do you reject being labeled as a part of any specific college?

Gerry Bergstein:
Would I name myself a neo-expressionist? I did once I was within the 80s. Together with Francesco Clemente, Jorg Immendorf, David Salle, and Julian Schnabel. I used to be eager about a few of their work; I positioned myself in that spectrum. However there was quite a lot of unhealthy Neo-Expressionism too.  Is Philip Gustin a Neo-Expressionist? I don’t know

LG:
I feel his late work might slot in with that on some stage. I anticipated that you just may react in opposition to being labeled as a Neo-Expressionist; I assumed perhaps you’d resent being labeled, That you simply’re in a college of 1.

Gerry Bergstein:
I’m extra into my ancestral lineage. Possibly starting with Bruegel and Hieronymus Bosch, happening to Piranesi, Velasquez, and Goya, after which up by way of Ensor, Rousseau, the Surrealists, the German expressionists, and the Summary Expressionists like de Kooning. Arshile Gorky, Gorky was a giant affect, after which the Neo-expressionists are additionally my forebearers.&nbsp

However what you need to do is so as to add your individual take to no matter you’re doing–you need to make it your individual. You’re advancing the custom slightly step at a time. it’s a really broad custom. I imply contains near-total abstraction and in addition artists like Bouguereau and Fragonard. Late in life, I all of the sudden fell in love with Fragonard, who is sort of my exact opposite. His sentimentality is so blatant that I simply can’t assist however find it irresistible. Nonetheless, Boucher, I don’t like as a lot.

LG:
I don’t know if you happen to’ve seen the brand new Synthetic Intelligence picture software program the place you give textual content prompts to mix imagery gleaned from thousands and thousands of photographs on the net. I noticed not too long ago the place somebody mixed a Bouguereau nude and a few type of blue monster.

This type of AI surrealism is, as a rule, fairly dreadful, however I nonetheless suppose it may very well be helpful for producing concepts visually. Type of like drawing thumbnail sketches. I attempted this some time in the past, writing within the immediate, Picasso portray of the Tower of Babel, to see what may come up. It was attention-grabbing what it selected to do.

Gerry Bergstein:
It’s fascinating and terrifying on the identical time.  Is the painter going to be just like the chess grasp, who can not beat the pc anymore? I don’t know. However what terrifies me one 12 months, I can fall in love with the subsequent.

LG:
 I assume the purpose I’m fascinated with is that a lot of our lineage is open for reinterpretation and making it new. Like perhaps making hybrids like medieval-neo-expressionism or cubist-photorealism. Know-how, in addition to our modern mindset, permits the previous to proceed in new, thrilling methods. Portray is much from being useless. 

Gerry Bergstein:  
Portray has been declared useless for properly over 100 years. (laughs)
Previous and future generations look at the identical points by way of the lens of their tradition and thru their know-how. Some issues might evolve technically and culturally, however the huge points like life and loss of life, love and intercourse, energy and rage all keep the identical.

LG:
That’s an excellent level. 

You’ve talked prior to now about your fascination with juxtaposing contrasting imagery and methods of making use of the paint. You typically paint trompe l’oeil parts, particularly flat issues like tape, over or alongside expressionistic parts. You may also incorporate flat, cartoon, or child-like drawings, collage, and sculptural items subsequent to realistically painted fruits. You appear to experience combining the excessive and low-brow, sacred and profane, and the banal with the extraordinary. You as soon as said that your “work distinction the superior and the trivial, the historic and the private, the manic and the melancholic.” Are you able to say extra about why this has engaged you for therefore lengthy?

Gerry Bergstein:
I grew up with studying comedian books, Mad Journal, Twilight Zone, and science fiction magazines, and one in all my favourite exhibits that I noticed extra not too long ago as a present of Pulp Fiction covers on the Brooklyn Museum. I feel they’re so nice.

My dad and mom had been very cultured, however they had been very shy and remoted virtually, so I had quite a lot of conflicting influences.  I prefer to joke that I used to be the rebellious son of accountants and dentists. I’ve all that obsessiveness in me, however I typically explode. It’s constructed into my psychology; even within the 60s, in the course of the peak of the coed strike, in fact, I used to be completely in favor of peace and civil rights, however there was additionally what I known as psychedelic fascism. It was just like the left telling you what to do as like the best was telling you what to do–‘meet the brand new boss, identical because the outdated boss’–or one thing like that, proper? 
I’ve all the time been a skeptic, and I’m undecided why, however I feel it’s an attention-grabbing place to be. I’ve two quotes on my web site, one from John Lennon and the opposite from Groucho Marx. Lennon says all you want is love and Marx says no matter it’s, I’m in opposition to it! (laughs)

LG:
That’s so humorous. Nice.

Gerry Bergstein:
I additionally suppose I can be taught stuff like what Ivan Albright has in frequent with Jackson Pollock, perhaps not the deepest connection, however it’s there. What does Chuck Shut have in frequent with the de Kooning, and what makes them completely different? I feel the factor about Chuck Shut was that he was temperamentally unsuited to be an summary painter as a result of he was due to the emotional curler coaster of summary expressionist portray– I do that as properly; if I make one good mark, I all of the sudden suppose that is the best factor that’s ever occurred in artwork.  The emotional; ups and downs had been an excessive amount of for him. He additionally stated that he thought abstraction was not an enviornment for main breakthroughs at the moment.

I even have this concept known as likelihood conferences. I did some collages within the early 2000s; a few of them had been installations hanging in my studio, with every thing hooked up to string and clothesline. And there have been all these picture reproductions of work speaking to one another. Like perhaps The Flintstones and late Leonardo speaking to one another. And I discover that conglomeration satisfying. And, , individuals criticize it as a result of it was like an excessive amount of of an artwork historic joke, and maybe it was, however perhaps it wasn’t fully an artwork historic joke as a result of for me, it was one thing actual. 

LG:
William T Wiley stated in an interview speaking about one in all his exhibits, 

“It’s like Sir Francis Bacon’s assertion, “There’s no factor of wonderful magnificence that doesn’t have inside itself some proportion of strangeness.” So, , excessive and low meet at that time the place authenticate expression emerges, I feel, and a few impressed expression emerges, whether or not it’s with a razor blade or an outdated sock, it’s no matter that exact factor. So you possibly can have one thing there that, the newest post-modern time period is, “Appears to be like like artwork, so it have to be artwork.”

How do you determine the steadiness between the disparate parts and the proportion of strangeness?

Gerry Bergstein:
I like that William Wiley assertion very a lot. I feel that type of sums it up for me.

LG:
We talked slightly about Greenbergian Modernism artwork dogma and such, together with the inflexible doctrine of each the best and left and different comparable closed ideologies which have influenced your artwork and life. Is there something extra to say about this?

Gerry Bergstein:
The issue with ideologies is that they have to be put into follow by individuals. All of them have a level of reality, however I feel that non-public ambition is just like the “uncertainty” precept” of the artwork world and most different human worlds. It’s by no means talked about in ideologies however is a hidden a part of their creation. I really feel strongly about that, perhaps as a result of I used to be so shy for therefore lengthy and other people round me had been expressing themselves with nice authority–I used to be petrified of them. However that’s not true anymore. Now I received’t shut up. (laughs)

LG:
Did underground cartoonists like Robert Crumb or earlier cartoonists like George Herriman ever have a lot affect in your work?

Gerry Bergstein:
I like R. Crumb. I like that documentary about him. I’m uncomfortable when he beheads girls in his work. Nonetheless, I feel he’s an excellent draftsman and a kinky man in an attention-grabbing approach. George Herriman, I like simply because Philip Guston preferred him, however I don’t know him very properly. I by no means learn psychedelic comics. As an alternative, I learn stuff like Archie and Superman once I was very younger. The Hardy Boys, the American dream, Father Is aware of Finest, the American Dream–you’re a superb boy. You solved the crime–you’re a superb boy. That was a complete lie, and that compels me, understanding how we delude ourselves.

LG:
Are you able to say one thing about your portray course of? I’m curious how a lot you consciously plan out your work or do they tackle a lifetime of their very own with out a lot planning beforehand?

Gerry Bergstein:
I’ve had many various processes, however I can provide you a number of of them.

Once I was nonetheless in class, I used to be in love with Arshile Gorky, and I beloved the type of eroticism and delicacy of his line and form. I beloved his rigorous compositions, however I couldn’t get it in my very own work. And at some point, I had this colour canvas, and in a match of pique, I simply painted the entire thing black and scraped into it with the again of my paintbrush. I assumed, Oh, there’s Gorky’s line. So I fell in love with it. I assumed it was one of the best portray of the twentieth century, and I confirmed it to BarneyRubenstein, and he stated, properly, it’s very good, however it appears like Gorky. So I discovered that it’s important to add one thing. The method that I’ve most likely used probably the most, and what I’m engaged on proper now, are these black and white items the place I begin out utilizing black gesso and two or three layers of ivory black with slightly wax medium. So there’s slightly little bit of tooth to it; I blot it and let it dry. I then apply zinc white combined with slightly clove oil which retains it moist for a month. I then use these completely different instruments that I scrape into the image. I normally have a construction in thoughts. 

Till about three months in the past, for a couple of 12 months, I used to be doing these orb-like shapes; typically, they jogged my memory virtually like a flying saucer, or Earth, or perhaps my mind.  I might draw within the construction after which randomly, with quite a lot of agitation, transfer my arm round throughout the construction. I might strive perspectival and different methods of creating issues look spherical. Regularly biomorphic shapes or ruined landscapes elements of it will emerge, and daily I come into the studio and do it some extra, after which when that each one dried, I might take these little tiny brushes and improve a few of the shapes that I noticed. They turned fairly completely different. 

And in my newer ones, I’ve collaged pictures of various elements of various work, and I print them in barely completely different colours from black and white. So the latest ones have slightly little bit of colour in them once more. In order that’ sgraffito method affords me the chance to rorschach and free-associate and make errors. 

I attempted one other factor a number of years earlier for my present “Theory and Practice” at the Naga Gallery  I turned seduced by digital images, for higher or worse. It took me about 10 years to do something I type of preferred. My studio ground is a large number, it’s a portray in itself, and each time I reduce out slightly determine or historic picture that I’d need to check out in a portray. it falls on the ground together with the drips on the ground, after which I made a decision to pour white home paint on high of all this and canopy up a few of it, however not all of it. I then would stroll round it till I’d discover a composition I preferred. I then had a good friend are available in with a 200-megapixel Hasselblad, and he took an image of it for me. I photographed it and printed it out giant, very giant on canvas, like 5 by six toes. 

LG:
Did you print that your self or did you have got another person?

Gerry Bergstein:
Fortunately I had entry to the Museum Faculty’s printers and their Tech Assistants. 

LG:
Wow, that’s nice.

Gerry Bergstein:
So I might do this, after which I might take detailed pictures of little elements of the ground. So the large shot was the ground assembly the wall.  There was graffiti on the wall, and there was stuff on the ground. However then I might take these drips of white home paint that may crack after some time. They’d additionally get distressed after I walked on them after they had been dry. They’d start to appear to be fossilized de Kooning pours. So we take footage of them after which reduce them out and collage them into the portray. One in all my favorites type of seemed like a fossilized de Kooning. There too, I might paint into them and see issues within the summary shapes that appear to be photographs, however then in the event that they turned an excessive amount of like images-that, they received corny, I’d have to scale it again. It was a type of a juggling act.

I additionally had a nonetheless life interval once I met Gail, who’s the exact opposite of me. I used to be deeply in love together with her, and he or she turned my muse and led me to make these lovely nonetheless lives of flowers and fruit for 3 or 4 years (within the 90s. – I needed to be very lovely but in addition cope with vanitas, the evanescence of all magnificence in artwork and life.

LG:
These fruit and flower had been virtually little sculptures created from thick paint, proper? 

Gerry Bergstein:
Sure, a few of them used toy mannequin railroad staff who had been establishing fruit out of very thick paint. I like the thought of one thing being pure paint and picture concurrently. Like the way you may see in Thiebaud’s thickly painted image of  Ketchup, Mustard, and Mayonaise.

Generally what occurs is that I’m doing one thing for 3 to 5 years and I start to get bored. First, it’s a studying curve, after which after I discovered tips on how to do it and do some actually good work, It begins to be slightly too simple, and I get bored. And so I feel the explanation I finished doing this sgraffito for a few years was that I received sick of it. Nonetheless, now, I’m into it once more.

In a nonetheless earlier part, I might paint fruit on a canvas, after which I might drip white paint on high of it, then I might paint into the white paint, and progressively, there have been so many drips on high of it that they turned completely summary. Ultimately, I misplaced my approach, and I went into one thing else. 

I developed a few methods for a collection of determine self-portraits the place the pinnacle appears like a drawing, however it’s truly a portray. I might take {a photograph} after which have this white paint on high of black paint after which hint an overview from the {photograph}; I might then very fastidiously render the pinnacle on the canvas with a pencil. So it seemed like a fairly good realist depiction. However then, on the our bodies, I might have picture illusions of little scraps of paper with all my favourite artists listed or photographs from artists like Gorky or Vija Celmins to my father’s head, to an anatomical chart half. And so my physique turned artwork historical past or one thing private as an artist factor. Randall Diehl, a good friend of Gregory Gillespie’s did this nice self-portrait with tattoos of various artists throughout his physique. I like artwork about artwork.

LG:
That’s so attention-grabbing. I observed that in a number of of your work the place you embrace some kind of self-portrait, You’re sporting this paint-dripped shirt and pants that look slightly like a mix of a de Kooning and a Hubble picture of the celebrities, making you appear to be a cosmic home painter. Is that one thing you made?

Gerry Bergstein:
I made that myself; it’s a t-shirt with black Denims with acrylic poured on high of it. I wore that outfit of the day opening of that present.

LG:
That’s so humorous.

Gerry Bergstein:
Really, I simply wore the shirt I didn’t put on the pants; that may have been an excessive amount of.

LG:
I’m undecided if  Cosmos is the best phrase, however there appeared to be a motif of the cosmo working by way of plenty of your works. I’ve learn that electron microscope imagery of the construction of neural networks within the mind look remarkably much like astronomical pictures that present the bigger patterns of thousands and thousands of galaxies. Your work typically appeared to talk to this fascinating comparability on some stage.

Gerry Bergstein:
The macro and the micro Sure. Completely. Subatomic and deep house. Sure.

LG:
An incredible thought for a t-shirt!

Gerry Bergstein:
I’m within the cosmos as a result of it’s so superior, mysterious, and non secular. I’m type of an agnostic, however I imagine there’s one thing that I’ll by no means perceive or also have a clue about; it’s so splendidly mysterious. And then you definately have a look at the Earth, and we’ve got Donald Trump. Actually not great and mysterious, he’s the exact opposite of that, from the elegant to the ridiculous. I’m eager about that problem too.

LG:
Ugh, please don’t get me began about Trump! I like these new pictures coming from the brand new James Webb Area Telescope. Simply so astounding that we now get this new appreciation of the place we’re within the bigger scheme of issues and the way small and insignificant we’re however on the identical time so uncommon and valuable.

Gerry Bergstein:
I do know, they’re going to have the ability to perhaps get clues of the place there may be life. It’s completely wonderful.

LG:
I learn a quote from John Walker saying one thing alongside the traces of  ‘…his varieties should have the quantity in order that they may suggest different issues, that his work should be imbued with feeling. In any other case, it’s simply design or ornament.’ Would you agree with this and care to remark additional? Are you aware him?

Gerry Bergstein:
I don’t know him however I like his work. It’s a high-quality line. As somebody who loves Bouguereau and Fragonard – I won’t be one of the best one to reply about sentimentality.(laughs)` I feel there’s a distinction between emotion and sentimentality. There’s quite a lot of feeling in Max Beckmann; There’s quite a lot of feeling in de Kooning. There’s quite a lot of feeling in Vija Celmins. Unusually sufficient. It’s inclusive of feeling, mind, and course of in various proportions or kind of essential to completely different artists. At instances an artist like Hyman Bloom will get slightly sentimental however it’s a elegant sentimentality. So , I feel it’s borderline, however artwork could be nothing with out feeling, and artwork could be nothing with out any person’s thoughts and creativeness. Artwork may also be nothing with out particular person methods of individuals develop. So I feel they’re all essential.

LG:
I perceive you might be married to the painter Gail Boyajian who paints unbelievable panoramic landscapes with birds. I observed that one in all her work ( Vanitas, 2015 ) contains the Tower of Babel. And a few of your fruit and flower work present some affinities together with her work.  Regardless of your topics and types being so completely different, there appear to be a number of factors the place they intersect. I’m curious to listen to something you may say about having a painter as a associate.

Gerry Bergstein:
I made these Fruit and Flower work for her; We had one within the background within the place the place we received married. I first noticed Bruegel’s Tower of Babel portray in 1971 on my first journey to Europe, however I beloved it a lot that I went again later with Gail; there’s a complete room of Bruegel’s work. We each love Bruegel.

LG:
I discover each the story of the Tower of Babel and Bruegel’s portray so compelling – just like the bible saying people want to remain of their lane – don’t evolve with better ambitions like advances in civilization. To not construct our data, medication, science, and humanity any increased. It exhibits how insecure this God have to be to fret about people rising above their station.

Gerry Bergstein:
I see it as human ambition taking up from God, and That’s why he destroyed it, and it’s hubris, and it’s the type of like power-seeking or understanding every thing or which we by no means can do as a result of (goddamn) God made us so we couldn’t do it. (laughs)  However I can see your level; I feel it’s the alternative aspect of the identical coin. It’s in regards to the folly of ambition and energy. However then again, that’s all we’ve got, and I like ambition and energy. It’s a double-edged sword.

LG: 
Sorry, I interrupted you, please proceed speaking about your spouse.

Gerry Bergstein:
It’s a very attention-grabbing relationship. She hardly ever watches tv. She doesn’t know what Mad Journal was. She doesn’t know the New Wave music I used to hearken to. However she’s a complete professional on Henry James and George Eliot. So once we first received collectively, we vowed that I might learn Portrait of a Woman, and he or she was going to observe LA Legislation. (laughs) So she watched one episode of LA Legislation, and I learn one chapter of Portrait of a Woman, and we’ve been arguing about it ever since. However now we’re beginning to come collectively within the heart. I learn an ideal biography of Henry James not too long ago; I used to be fascinated by it as a result of he was an bold insecure man, identical to the remainder of us. (laughs) So we’ve got nice discussions, and he or she’s a superb critic of sure issues in my work, like the place one thing is spatially. So we’re encouraging and serving to one another in our work. Since our work is so completely different, we’re not aggressive with one another. She has a unique type of ambition than I do. My ambition is altering as I become older, slightly extra contemplative. I’m not so anxious.

LG:
As you become older, are you engaged on a smaller scale?

Gerry Bergstein:
Really, it’s getting larger; it’s getting each larger and smaller.

LG:
The size of so lots of your works is large. I’m curious; some painters I’ve talked to begin to work smaller as a result of they don’t have the cupboard space or different causes, however you promote most of your work, in order that’s most likely not a difficulty, proper?

Gerry Bergstein:
I don’t promote an enormous quantity of labor. I just like the individuals on the Naga Gallery–they’re actually trustworthy and useful. However I feel a few of my newer work is simply too fragile and huge, I don’t know why I like  to maintain doing it. I assume I’m an fool. (laughs) Possibly working bigger is a response to mortality. I’ve had a number of well being issues; nothing will kill me imminently. However I understand, in a approach, I by no means have earlier than, that that is going to finish, and I need to get my final shot in or one thing. Final 12 months I labored on three tremendous giant work, the biggest of which was 90 by 112 inches. That took over a 12 months, and now I’m returning to considerably smaller work.

LG:
The inhabitants explosion of painters over the previous a number of many years has made the competitors to indicate and promote work impossibly stiff, particularly in a higher-end market the place somebody may make sufficient to dwell on. Work are sometimes valued much less for creative advantage and extra for saleability or advertising and marketing. What opinion are you able to share about this dynamic? 

Gerry Bergstein:
That’s an attention-grabbing query as a result of I like to promote work, and I’m all the time fantasizing about promoting work, but when I had been extra eager about promoting, I’d make very completely different work. So it’s a combined bag. I do work that’s troublesome after which complain if nobody needs it. (laughs)  I do give it some thought, definitely, however I don’t let it intrude with decision-making within the precise act of portray. It’s a balancing act.

LG:
It appears to me that for some artists, the extra they attempt to make it sellable, the more serious it will get. The essential factor is to concentrate on the integrity of the work, which you do. 

Gerry Bergstein: 
It’s actually onerous. Placing your self out on this planet. It’s essential. I do it reluctantly, however I do it. Nonetheless, I do it much less as I’m getting older. I’m displaying much less and getting out on this planet.  Covid, in fact, was little bit of a damper. (laughs)

LG:
How a lot ought to younger painters care in regards to the business potential of their art work? What recommendation may you provide the youthful era of painters developing?

Gerry Bergstein:
They need to be fascinated with making buddies with different artists. That’s good for dialogue of the work and in addition good for introductions. I received my begin from a good friend who launched me to a supplier and received a present. I most likely would have by no means achieved that alone. However you possibly can go too far in both course. I agree with you. College students want some type of dialogue of what occurs proper after college and tips on how to survive, tips on how to survive with a day job, and have a objective to work themselves as much as. As shy as I used to be, when my work began getting good, about 1980, and I started to face behind my work, I didn’t have any downside displaying it to individuals, however earlier than that, I used to be all the time slightly shaky, and perhaps for a superb purpose. Even now, I don’t typically ship my work out to sellers very a lot in different cities. I used to try this. I confirmed in locations apart from Boston. 

I feel younger artists have to know that it’s a tough enterprise. They should be very persistent in order that they could luck out and have a present and promote after they’re very younger, which comes with its personal difficulties. Or they could should work for a number of years. I had I’ve had college students for whom I write letters of advice to get into graduate college yearly for ten years, after which lastly, they get accepted. I feel it takes a very long time to learn to paint. There’s one girl I taught; not solely did she get into grad college, however now she’s getting these instructing jobs. She’s an ideal panorama painter, and if she hadn’t labored for eight or 9 years with out a lot recognition, It might have been unhappy as a result of she’s doing terrific work.

Should you get discouraged and need to give up, that’s your small business. I’ve additionally had painters who received out of grad college and began displaying in galleries a 12 months later and offered their work for some huge cash, after which–identical to that–it ends. They will’t work out what else to do. No matter you’re doing, it’s important to be in it for the lengthy haul, be trustworthy with your self and let the chips fall the place they could. The entire thing in regards to the overblown artwork market, work promoting for lots of of thousands and thousands of {dollars}, is obscene. However the different query is that if I might promote a portray for 100 million {dollars}, I guess I might! (laughs) I nonetheless suppose it’s obscene. Artists should make a residing, perhaps even a cushty residing, however this commodification stuff, with individuals, are shopping for artwork for the mistaken causes, is terrible. The younger artist has to navigate commodification in addition to having the ability to navigate socializing and friendships. They should be assertive and get their work on the market and don’t anticipate it all the time to work out, to have a thick pores and skin. Making use of for grants and the like, it’s a crapshoot. And , Possibly if you happen to’re fortunate, you’ll get one in 20 tries, so simply maintain doing it.

 

LG:
Do you have got a present developing sooner or later within the close to future?

Gerry Bergstein:
Sure, in September 2023 on the Naga Gallery.

LG:
You’ll be displaying these new giant work you talked about there?

Gerry Bergstein:
I’ve some small ones to indicate too. The Gallery Naga is so nice; they encourage you to take extra dangers and never be apprehensive about what individuals suppose; they’re very supportive. I’m completely satisfied about that.

LG:
From what I do know, it’s an excellent gallery with a splendidly various vary of painters. 

Gerry Bergstein:
Sure, they do.

LG:
Many galleries are having a tough time on this economic system and all. Are they doing okay?

Gerry Bergstein:
Sure, the Naga is wholesome as a result of they’re good enterprise individuals. Since covid, it has difficult issues for all of the galleries.

LG:
is Arthur Dion nonetheless the director?

Gerry Bergstein:
No, Arthur retired. Meg White changed him. Arthur has turn out to be a really severe Buddhist.

LG:
Is Buddhism one thing that pursuits you as properly? It’s been essential for a lot of painters, like Gregory Gillespie

Gerry Bergstein:
Solely peripherally. I’ve tried meditation, however I’m so unhealthy at it. David Sipress had an ideal cartoon, of a person elevating his hand in a meditation class saying,  “I’m fascinated with not pondering, is that appropriate?” (laughs)  And that’s what occurs to me once I meditate. I do it now and again, and it’s useful if I’m anxious about one thing. How about you, do you meditate?

LG:
No, nonetheless,  after lunch, I prefer to hearken to classical music in an virtually asleep, dreamlike state for 20 minutes or so. It’s rejuvenating. I don’t suppose it’s meditating, although, however it works for me.
Do you paint whereas listening to music?

Gerry Bergstein:
Classical music, sure! I like chamber music. Once I began this new collection of work, I listened completely to the chamber music of Beethoven, Brahms, Schubert, and Mendelssohn, whereas I used to be portray and it was so inspiring. I additionally love rock music.

LG:
Do you ever fear in regards to the music influencing the portray an excessive amount of on some stage?
Gerry Bergstein:
Sure, I’ve heard that; perhaps that’s true. And I used to all the time till I used to be till about 1990 I listened to music continuously within the studio. Both classical or new wave, Punk or no matter. After which all of the sudden I began listening to the information…

LG:
Oh no, that’s fairly unhappy today. (laughs)

Gerry Bergstein:
After which now I’m again listening to music. However not fairly as a lot, I’ve to remind myself. However once I’m doing it, I find it irresistible.

LG:
I really feel that I need to paint as a lot as I can. If I spent all my time portray with no music, then I’d by no means get to hearken to music. Life’s onerous sufficient; you may as properly take pleasure in it wherever you possibly can!

Gerry Bergstein:
Precisely. I agree; I like music; I feel it’s the best artwork type.

LG:
Generally I think about what musician could be most like a sure painter, what musician would I equate them with? Possibly your musical doppelgänger could be Frank Zappa, would that be honest?

Gerry Bergstein:
Completely!, We’re in it Just for the Cash is one in all my all-time favourite albums.

LG:
A humorous factor – that album I heard was a part of a mission that Zappa known as No Commerical Potential – but it was such an enormous success. One other instance of the significance of being true to your inventive self.

Gerry Bergstein:
I additionally hearken to John Coltrane and Charlie Mingus. Generally I think about the blacks in my portray remind me of somebody enjoying the cello, like a Bach Cello Suite or one thing. So it’s a variety.
However then, I’ll hearken to Little Richard the subsequent day. I need to have Beethoven’s Grosse Fugue, adopted by Chuck Berry’s Roll Over Beethoven, performed at my funeral.

LG:
That sounds good. Let’s hope that received’t be for a lot of, a few years sooner or later.